Full Interview Transcript
[00:00:00] Emily Kotecki: Welcome to Museum Buzz, a podcast where we unpack trendy, buzzy words in museums, through conversation and games. I'm Emily Kotecki. This is Season Three, the Mini Series, where we are featuring three incredible guests talking about three very important topics related to distance learning, such as accessibility and social emotional learning.
Today, we're going to talk about building online communities with Dr. Lauren Vargas, independent researcher and consultant of Your Digital Tattoo, as well as a one by one research associate with the University of Leicester. She is based in the Netherlands. Lauren, thank you for being here.
[00:00:46] Lauren Vargas: Great to be here. Thanks for the opportunity to chat with you.
[00:00:48] Emily Kotecki: Lauren, I'd love to hear a little bit more to share with our listeners about what you do and specifically on your website it says you're a digital dragon wrangler. So what does that mean?
[00:01:00] Lauren Vargas: That means I deal with all the elements of digital that most people do not like to handle, such as governance, things around inclusive conversation and community building. The really like in-depth nitty gritty, strategy design and governance elements. It's, it's tackling the really sticky issues around digital that may or may not have clear cut answers, but really helping people and organizations better understand how digital works with their context and conditions.
[00:01:36] Emily Kotecki: You've mentioned kind of building community, and in the context of online learning, we have never had a more active year of building communities in an online learning space then in this last year. When you look back at the landscape, what do you feel like we've learned about building online communities?
[00:01:54] Lauren Vargas: So I think we need to be careful in how we define community.
I think that there have been a lot of online sites that have spaces that have popped up over the last year and a quarter as a result of, of having to work and communicate and collaborate remotely. But those don't necessarily make it a community.
Um, when we talk about what the essence of a community is, I really kind of go back to Carrie Melissa Jones and Charles Vogel's definition or criteria for a really good community from their book 'Building Brand Communities,' in which they say there are three foundational elements. The first is choice. The second is connection. And the third is progress.
And I think that when we're talking about community, we have to be really clear: are we facilitating transactional type of activities? Or are we striving to create interactions where we're really hoping to connect people, not just with the organization, the group, the team, but with each other? They have a choice they want to participate.
And that there's some type of, of common ground that is being, that is being understood to help propel either the individual, or the individual and the community, towards some progressive milestones, some growth. And so I think that online community has existed for quite some time. And I think, you know, online community in an educational environment has always been there.
We've seen a growth of you know, quote unquote, communities. It's whether those communities, how they have either morphed from what they were or how they were built during the pandemic, if they can sustain with engaging interactions, sticky relationship building.
[00:03:47] Emily Kotecki: I'm going to kind of go into that first one choice that you mentioned. When we think about online learning, people might share similar motivations for signing up, but different ideas on the learner perspective from maybe versus the museum or library perspective about what it means to engage and create that community.
So how do you help organizations think about, taking the, the choice, the people's choice to sign up for that course, into building a community and making those connections, which was your second one.
[00:04:16] Lauren Vargas: It comes down to you, you know, creating some empathetic connection, right? So, so understanding for whom is this community being built for whom, you know, are the community resources being used and how they are being used. Rather than it being projected by the team or the organization, right?
It needs to really revolve around the user needs and expectations. And that can only happen through understanding, developing that empathetic connection and then applying that empathetic connection. So just as I would, through any type of digital transformation effort, I would counsel you know, any type of organization or group wanting to either further their community development or create a brand new community, you know, do some dynamic journey mapping, right?
Understand the different types of experiences that you want to cultivate. Give them a choice for multiple paths versus a one size fits all for the entire community, because you may have common ground. You may have even some common, um, progressive milestones that you want to reach together.
But there are going to be different paths, different methods of engagement that you are going to have to, to, to develop to really kind of surface and be able to deliver to unique community member needs.
[00:05:39] Emily Kotecki: I guess thinking about this idea of this definition of community, do you feel like it's, maybe the word I'm looking for is, elastic? Because with online learning that there might be a virtual field trip, and maybe the, you would say this is going more into the transactional mode, right? Where it's, you're not going to develop community in that, in that 30, 45 minute time span, or maybe you believe you can.
So I'm wondering when we think about different time spent together, is the definition of community elastic enough to allow something special, to build in a short time versus a multi, like a longer course, let's say.
[00:06:13] Lauren Vargas: For sure. There are different types of communities, right? There are communities of interest, action, place, activism, practice and circumstance. And there could be a hybrid of how those communities, you know, come together. And time is one of those elements. Think about community as that connective tissue.
So no matter how they're coming together in a physical or digital space, they can asynchronously, you know, come together in a community environment and, you know, delve a bit deeper or become more connected or engaged through certain activities. You know, those physical experiences or transactions, they're the launch pad, right?
Or the activities that get people really excited and maybe interested and to see who else is part of their space. The community itself, that connective tissue, is all of those little tiny, you know, daily, weekly, monthly activities, um, interactions that then form some type of relationship over time.
[00:07:18] Emily Kotecki: Is that where it gets to your point. You mentioned earlier about sustainability?
[00:07:21] Lauren Vargas: Yes. Yeah. And I think to your point, I mean, communities can spin up and spin down, you know, based upon, you know, tying together. I think what is misunderstood, um, in a lot of cases, when I'm dealing with organizations, either wanting to create community or they want to evolve their current community, is to understand if you want those deeper relationships, you want that empathetic connection, it's going to take more time and more resource.
It's not just going to happen through a couple of abstract activities or transactions. It's really going to have to be deliberate and consistent behavior and facilitation and inclusive, you know, boundaries.
[00:08:06] Emily Kotecki: And this might be going to the direction where you mentioned earlier, the idea of nitty gritty and sticky. I just kind of liked the sound of that. What do you find are those sticky spots with developing online communities that are, it might be sticky spots and they might be blind spots for museums trying to develop this that they're not aware of?
[00:08:25] Lauren Vargas: So, communities may have a code of conduct or a terms of service. Um, but those aren't really written with a human- first perspective in mind. It's usually, you know, to kind of a watch. You know, legal terms, we need more of a social contract that brings together our community members. And I prefer to consider that a community pact.
And one of those sticky issues is really defining what are the boundaries of your community? Now I am all about creating inclusive conversations, inclusive communities spaces, but we need to have really clear boundaries of what is considered safe, right? What is considered part of the norms and expectations of our community?
Because as we onboard, as we want to retain community members, we need to signal what that safety is by modeling the behavior that we seek. And I see so many times that we haven't done enough of that thinking about what defines safety? Who do we want to exclude because of certain actions or behaviors?
And I know that that might sound a little counter to being inclusive, but if we don't have, and hold those boundaries for safe space, we can't have that sustainable a resilient community.
[00:09:40] Emily Kotecki: That reminds me, um, there's a news outlet called Axios and they just released the, just, it was like it was in the last. What is time these days? But like, it was a recently released an audience bill of rights, where basically it was, and I don't know how they formed it. Right. So maybe we can talk about like, when you create this community pact, who were, who is involved in creating it?
But I liked that idea because it wasn't them saying, this is our journalistic standards. But it was saying that you, as an audience, you as our community of people who read us and trust us have rights too, in this relationship.
[00:10:15] Lauren Vargas: That's exactly what a community pact is. It's really, it's being very clear and deliberate with what are those expectations of the organization or the group, whatever it is, whomever is building that community. And then what are the expectations of the community members? You know, I see so many times whether it's in community guidelines, something like don't be a jerk.
Well my definition of jerk is going to be, maybe different than your definition, right? So we have to be clear and deliberate in the language that we use. And when I'm going through the community pact creation process, it needs to be co-designed. It needs to be co-developed with your community members, right? It's not just you projecting what you want, what you expect, what you want those community members to do think and feel. It's more along the lines of this is a dynamic social contract that you are going to continuously come back to, it should be anchored in your organizational values, your community values. And then how do you make those values actionable? What are those behaviors?
And it also serves as guidance as well. So you can be really clear, you know, this is how we handle a subtle act of exclusion.
When we talk about accountability, this is what we mean by accountable. No, you're three strikes and out, you know, what counts as a strike? You know, what, what are those specific boundaries? You are being incredibly detailed and it's not from the standpoint of don't do this, don't do that, but it is more of a sharing your reasoning.
We want to behave like this. We expect this because we're cultivating this type of community and that it's part of everyone's responsibility to hold and maintain that stuff.
[00:12:00] Emily Kotecki: If you could put a number on with the organizations that you work with, or they're just the ones that you see being in the space, how many do you feel like have that or invest time in that?
[00:12:11] Lauren Vargas: Very very, very few. In fact, they'll invest time in it once a crisis has occurred. You know, whether it's happened once or it happened so egregiously, then it becomes a, oh well now we need to do something. And they've already lost maybe half of their community members and to work and build up that trust and belonging all over again, it is incredibly stressful and time consuming and, you know, sucks all the energy, not just from the people that are creating or building that community, but from the community members themselves.
So if you put that effort upfront, you know, it's, it's not, it's not the flashiest of things when you're putting together a community, but it's the most important when you're thinking about what, what's the community scaffolding look like.
This Is part of it.
[00:12:59] Emily Kotecki: We had talked about earlier, we mentioned three kind of key pieces of building community: choice, connection, and progress. We have touched on and there's so much talk, but choice, choice, and connection. Tell me more about what do you mean by progress?
[00:13:13] Lauren Vargas: I see so often organizations and when I say organization, that can mean museums, you know, for-profit, private public sector. Oftentimes, what I see is that community, the organization forces its goals and objectives on the community and says, you know, this is what you need to work on and strive for, rather than just as the community pact is co-created and co-designed, you're asking your community members, what do you need? Right. How do we help you progress? Um, what can we do to progress together? You know, there are different pace layers of change within the community. You have your individual group, greater community, um, type of, of, of pace layers. So they're going to need different things at different times.
That's not to say that you can't, you know use or, or ask your community to help you along your own progression. Um, but you need to have some type of value exchange. So, what does that acknowledgement and reward and resourcing look like from the community members perspective? And knowing that their progress isn't going to be at the same speed or have the same ambition as your own.
So who, whom are you there to serve, right? And represent.
[00:14:34] Emily Kotecki: So making it relevant, really listening to the online community and making it relevant.
[00:14:40] Lauren Vargas: Real and relevant.
[00:14:42] Emily Kotecki: Before we switch in a minute to our game at the end of every episode, is there anything about online communities in the context of online learning that we haven't had a chance to discuss?
[00:14:53] Lauren Vargas: I would just emphasize community is absolutely amazing, but you need to, you need to have the resources to support it. And so the build it and they will come approach will not work. And for a community pact to be modeled and, and everyone held accountable. And for those same boundaries to be upheld, you're going to need to resource in a community manager. And that community manager can't just be somebody that does this off the side of their desk. It is part of a full-time responsibility. It is part of a learning effort. This, this learning, these insights and the community itself needs to be part of a feedback loop and integrated into your entire digital ecosystem.
It can't just stand on its own. It can't just be discreet. It needs to really be looped into the organization's efforts and really the community itself, their broader ecosystem. So it just can't, it can't be on its own.
[00:15:57] Emily Kotecki: Lauren, the next part of our discussion together is a game in which I'm going to ask you three questions about online community. Basically in the early aughts in prior, um, before maybe even, you know, at the very early, you know, years of online communities. So are you ready?
[00:16:15] Lauren Vargas: Okay.
[00:16:17] Emily Kotecki: Before, before Facebook and MySpace, there was this 2002 online community that was one of the first web based social networks.
[00:16:29] Lauren Vargas: The well,
[00:16:31] Emily Kotecki: Friendster.
[00:16:33] Lauren Vargas: Oh, Friendster. I should've known. Yes. The Well it's pretty much before 2002. So yeah.
[00:16:38] Emily Kotecki: I don't even know what the well is, well, let's think early in this one, I'm going to give slight hint. Um, what year did AOL? And for those, maybe I feel like most people would know AOL, but just in case America online, what year did AOL's live chat rooms launch?
[00:16:55] Lauren Vargas: Oh gosh, Emily, you're going to make me sound like I'm not a digital, like I'm not a technologist at all by not these.
[00:17:01] Emily Kotecki: I reached, I reached for our far back into the timeline. Um, so it is. Is it here? I'll give you a choice. 19 99, 19 89, 19
[00:17:16] Lauren Vargas: for sure.
[00:17:17] Emily Kotecki: 89.
[00:17:18] Lauren Vargas: 89.
[00:17:20] Emily Kotecki: I'll send you the I'll send you the link.
[00:17:22] Lauren Vargas: This is so embarrassing. I'm going to have to, like, I needed to study for this, you know, book person, you know, so I'm a.
[00:17:30] Emily Kotecki: For listeners: Lauren had no idea this game was coming. She had I told her before started recording. So it is, she is a genius. She doesn't need to know facts. is just for fun. But now this is, this might maybe be even the harder one, right? Um, Wikipedia may be one of the most famous online communities among many others.
The first crowdsourced article created was on which English letter, which investigated the origins and usage of such letter. And you have 26 choices.
[00:18:03] Lauren Vargas: Oh, gosh, Emily.
[00:18:08] Emily Kotecki: It's the latter, half of the alphabet. Now you have 13.
[00:18:12] Lauren Vargas: R.
[00:18:14] Emily Kotecki: Very close. It was you,
[00:18:16] Lauren Vargas: Ah, okay. I've today.
[00:18:18] Emily Kotecki: Well, we all learned something new today, I really enjoyed diving into these trivia questions cause I also have no idea about the early beginnings of online communities. So, um, it is a really fascinating space and Dr. Lauren Vargas, I really appreciate your time today.
[00:18:33] Lauren Vargas: Thank you so much, Emily.
[00:18:34] Emily Kotecki: This mini series came out of a publication that I released in May of 2021 called The Distance Learning Workbook: A Launch Guide for Museums, which walks museums through the four foundational components of building a distance learning program. Especially in the wake of the pandemic, many museums are pivoting to distance learning and needed to answer the question of "where do I begin?" The workbook is very interactive and hands-on walking museums through questions and activities relating to targeting audiences, identifying stakeholders, doing a technology audit, really making it relevant to your institution.
It is free and downloadable on my website, emily-kotecki.com. But, a workbook can only do so much. There's only so much time and length that people want to spend. And there is so much to cover in distance learning, which is where this podcast series came out of. So, it is an accompaniment to the workbook and I hope you enjoy the interviews.
I hope you enjoy the workbook. And if you have any questions about either of these or want to talk through ideas or work together, you can contact me through my website, emily-kotecki.com.
If you are interested in hearing the other episodes from the miniseries about accessibility or social emotional learning, or you want to go back and listen to seasons one or two of Museum Buzz, they are all available online, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you again for listening. Thank you to all of our guests, I'm Emily Kotecki. .
